DUST Search - strafing.

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Krias Thracian wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Alright, since it appears that actual inertia is off the table, can we have the strafe speeds reverted to 60% of base momove speed?

The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover.

The mechanics here are terrible and damaging to players for whom ability to aim and fight properly has been replaced by needing to load up aim assist to compensate.

I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please.

Strafing is and has been a staple of FPS gameplay for some time and it's strength is amplified on a console shooter due to the natural imprecision of the control pad as a method for control in an FPS. Dust further reinforces movement as it's primary defense for various reasons.

I'm far more concerned with the bunny hoppers who can jump anything up to 2-3 stories high than I am with strafing. The use of cover is dangerous in this game as you can be one-shotted with a great deal of ease even when pretty well tanked and warbarge strikes further compound issues with cover (barring snipers and other distance campers obviously) so that movement is just the best defense you can have. Part of that is the "wiggle dance" you seem to hate.

People do so much damage that even in cover, any angle you can be shot at will kill you, with the general ineffectiveness of the radar (to encourage scanning, a very clever mechanic), no cover is truly safe as it would be in a more traditional FPS like one of the Halo Series for example. All of this pushes down the trend towards cover and tactical movement and pushes up the use of strafing and semi-randomised movement in the game. Combine this with remote explosives and mass drivers and other large splash damage weapons and cover is a very dangerous place to be, not inherently, but just because standing in one place is generally suicide.

If you want to push it back the other way then you need to do more than just nerf movement, cover has to be reasonable and safer than it currently is. I have no idea how you would implement it, but I would buff cover so that if you're shot when you're in cover you get a form of damage resistance/hardening to your shields/armour. Cover dampens damage that comes from the side you are in cover or something similar to that. Off the top of my head I can't think of a reasonable way to implement this but I'm sure people here would have other ideas for buffing cover.

Here's what strafing looked like before wiggle-wiggle was introduced:
https://youtu.be/PYXffQMXXxM?t=74

^ Deliberate evasive maneuvers. Quite effective when done right, and quite different from gyrating in place while spraying aim-assisted hipfire.


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Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.05.18 22:45:00 - [1] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alright, since it appears that actual inertia is off the table, can we have the strafe speeds reverted to 60% of base momove speed? The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover. The mechanics here are terrible and damaging to players for whom ability to aim and fight properly has been replaced by needing to load up aim assist to compensate. I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please. Strafing is and has been a staple of FPS gameplay for some time and it's strength is amplified on a console shooter due to the natural imprecision of the control pad as a method for control in an FPS. Dust further reinforces movement as it's primary defense for various reasons. I'm far more concerned with the bunny hoppers who can jump anything up to 2-3 stories high than I am with strafing. The use of cover is dangerous in this game as you can be one-shotted with a great deal of ease even when pretty well tanked and warbarge strikes further compound issues with cover (barring snipers and other distance campers obviously) so that movement is just the best defense you can have. Part of that is the "wiggle dance" you seem to hate. People do so much damage that even in cover, any angle you can be shot at will kill you, with the general ineffectiveness of the radar (to encourage scanning, a very clever mechanic), no cover is truly safe as it would be in a more traditional FPS like one of the Halo Series for example. All of this pushes down the trend towards cover and tactical movement and pushes up the use of strafing and semi-randomised movement in the game. Combine this with remote explosives and mass drivers and other large splash damage weapons and cover is a very dangerous place to be, not inherently, but just because standing in one place is generally suicide. If you want to push it back the other way then you need to do more than just nerf movement, cover has to be reasonable and safer than it currently is. I have no idea how you would implement it, but I would buff cover so that if you're shot when you're in cover you get a form of damage resistance/hardening to your shields/armour. Cover dampens damage that comes from the side you are in cover or something similar to that. Off the top of my head I can't think of a reasonable way to implement this but I'm sure people here would have other ideas for buffing cover.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2015.05.19 09:24:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alright, since it appears that actual inertia is off the table, can we have the strafe speeds reverted to 60% of base momove speed? The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover. The mechanics here are terrible and damaging to players for whom ability to aim and fight properly has been replaced by needing to load up aim assist to compensate. I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please. Strafing is and has been a staple of FPS gameplay for some time and it's strength is amplified on a console shooter due to the natural imprecision of the control pad as a method for control in an FPS. Dust further reinforces movement as it's primary defense for various reasons. I'm far more concerned with the bunny hoppers who can jump anything up to 2-3 stories high than I am with strafing. The use of cover is dangerous in this game as you can be one-shotted with a great deal of ease even when pretty well tanked and warbarge strikes further compound issues with cover (barring snipers and other distance campers obviously) so that movement is just the best defense you can have. Part of that is the "wiggle dance" you seem to hate. People do so much damage that even in cover, any angle you can be shot at will kill you, with the general ineffectiveness of the radar (to encourage scanning, a very clever mechanic), no cover is truly safe as it would be in a more traditional FPS like one of the Halo Series for example. All of this pushes down the trend towards cover and tactical movement and pushes up the use of strafing and semi-randomised movement in the game. Combine this with remote explosives and mass drivers and other large splash damage weapons and cover is a very dangerous place to be, not inherently, but just because standing in one place is generally suicide. If you want to push it back the other way then you need to do more than just nerf movement, cover has to be reasonable and safer than it currently is. I have no idea how you would implement it, but I would buff cover so that if you're shot when you're in cover you get a form of damage resistance/hardening to your shields/armour. Cover dampens damage that comes from the side you are in cover or something similar to that. Off the top of my head I can't think of a reasonable way to implement this but I'm sure people here would have other ideas for buffing cover. Here's what strafing looked like before wiggle-wiggle was introduced: https://youtu.be/PYXffQMXXxM?t=74 ^ Deliberate evasive maneuvers. Quite effective when done right, and quite different from gyrating in place while spraying aim-assisted hipfire. Looks pretty much like what I see in-game currently to me. What is it you are unhappy with in that case? Looking at it, that's a standard part of any FPS, if you're unhappy with that, then why do you play FPS Games as that's been a staple tactic for years (I remember doing that on Duke Nukem 3D Multiplayer)? My personal opinion is that I think the problem is actually the hit detection that is being masked by strafing. I've unloaded entire clips into people and know I should have hit and killed them, but the hits didn't register. That is a far bigger problem than the speed of strafing, which is actually about on par with most games from what I've seen. The lousy hit detection is one of the reasons splash weapons and HMG's are so powerful. If 30% [not an accurate figure, just an example] of your shots don't register on the target then splash weapons will deal with the miss more effectively and the massive ROF weapons will also partially account for it. I don't think Strafing is the problem you seem to think it is in this regard, or if it is then I don't know why you're playing an FPS on a console. I've never had a problem with strafing in the game. The game not registering when I've clearly hit someone, sure, but not strafing. Like I said in my earlier post, strafing is more powerful in a console shooter because a pad is a much less precise control method than a mouse. If you have a high-dpi mouse then strafing becomes less prevalent as you can turn much quicker than they can strafe. But that's the nature of a game. If you want cover to be more important then you have to buff cover, not nerf the only thing that will give you a semblance of safety when there is no cover.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.05.19 11:00:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Strafing by itself isnot, nor never has been a problem. The fact that there is no acceleration or deceleration when changing directions is the problem. DUST is pretty much the only game developed in the last decade with multiplayer where the lack of strafing inertia is a thing. This lack of inertia allows players to create hit detection artifacting that is thoroighly detrimental to gameplay while enjoying reticle magnetism to insure their own shots are dead on with aim assist. The wiggle strafing was almost impossible when strafe moves were at 60% base movement. Hit detection was bad, but it was possible to reliable kill soneone who decided to dance in front of you. The wiggle glitch detection problem surfaced when strafing was buffed to 90% base movement. Now the wiggle has replaced the proper use of cover, and intelligent movement entirely. If there was an inertia simulation, the wiggle strafe wouldnt be a problem even at that unrealistic movement. The human body can track an opponent whiwho is properly constrained by physics. I can't disagree, but I still think the primary issue here is bad hit detection. I must admit, I haven't particularly noticed inertia as you describe on any FPS, but that might be the relatively low speeds involved, even 90% of base movement isn't massively fast so unless the inertia is unrealistically slow then I might not notice it. You say if there was an inertia simulation then it wouldn't be a problem. The same goes for accurate and correct hit detection. The problem wouldn't exist if they fixed hit detection. But hit detection has more far-reaching implications than just strafing. It's bad across the board. Strafing is one application, bad hit detection affects all levels of the game and like I said, if you fix the hit detection it's not an issue as you can still reliably kill someone. The last game I played before DT got a chap/chapette down to a fraction of their bar left, watched at least a dozen shots go right into their torso, they didn't drop. I went from full armour to nothing in that time. Give me correct and accurate hit detection over nerfing strafing is still my opinion.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.05.19 11:07:00 - [4] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: The wiggle glitch detection problem surfaced when strafing was buffed to 90% base movement. Now the wiggle has replaced the proper use of cover, and intelligent movement entirely. If there was an inertia simulation, the wiggle strafe wouldnt be a problem even at that unrealistic movement. The human body can track an opponent whiwho is properly constrained by physics. This. Sideways movement (aka, strafing) is perfectly acceptable, but the current version of the game has it being the best way to survive/win a gunfight as opposed to actually thinking about how you're engaging your opponent (aka, using cover, moving tactically to put your opponent at a disadvantage, ETD) and that is a problem. As Breakin Stuff said, if inertia existed on dropsuits (again) then people would be able to track properly, immediately reducing the effectiveness of wiggling in place and increasing the value and utility of cover, while rewarding the use of your brain (by rewarding forward thinking when engaging an enemy) as well as rewarding manual dexterity (by rewarding the one with the best aim.) Please see my earlier post. The intelligent use of cover has far more problems than that. Movement is the more powerful method because standing still is suicide in this game. You can be reliably one-shotted even in cover with any amount sticking over the top, warbarge strikes turn cover into a joke and are easy ways to keep a massively dominant team on top and pad their kill scores as well as clear whole swathes of enemies as the movement system won't allow any but the stragglers to get out of range. Mass drivers, remote explosives, grenades, plasma cannons all do massive (or fast refiring in the case of mass drivers) splash damage which means that your best defense is movement. That simply will not change if you nerf strafing. All that will happen is that splash weapons will be even more powerful because inertia will prevent you clearing the splash zone. AOE weapons are artificially powerful in a game with pad controls because the accuracy of pad controls is orders of magnitude lower than a mouse and keyboard, they don't need a stealth buff, which is what will happen if you nerf movement in any meaningful way. If cover is to be reliable then it needs to actually be useful and at the moment it's far too easy to clear someone out from behind cover, which just means that movement is the go-to method for defense. That's the way it's gonna stay. Personally I'd prefer it if cover granted some kind of defensive bonus even when you're being shot, but I can't see how that would be implemented. Likewise I'd like to see very very powerful cover but destructible cover but again, I can't see an easy way to implement that in the current game. As I said, the problems people are having with strafing, to me, are due not to the power of strafing, but the inadequacies of any of the other methods of defense.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.05.19 11:51:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: None of your points address the problem. The ability to break hit detection on primary weapons regardless of range or skill is game diminishing. AoE area denial weapons do less DPS than any of the rifles, the HMG or laser rifles. If you can draw a bead and hit you can kill them faster than they can kill you. Area denial weapons are NOT a justification for keeping a mechanic that is only useful when encountering a automatic weapon. Moving through cover has alealways been the best defense against mass drivers and forge guns. This lazy, easy movement exploit detracts from the game. It adds nothing to the game except the potential for exploiting the lackluster hit detection. And bluntly AoE splash weapons exist to FLUSH THE RATS OUT OF COVER. Right tool for the right job. Right now every tool is used as a run 'n gun twitch toy rather than a tactical choice. I'm not trying to address what you see as the problem. As I explained in my initial post, I don't see it as a problem. You say inertia has been a part of every FPS for 10 years. I don't agree, or if it is it's imperceptible which amounts to the same thing. I don't see the problem with strafing in its current format other than hit detection. AOE Splash weapons may well exist to flush people out of cover, but that diminishes cover and pushes movement to be more useful. You can't have it both ways, do you want to be able to easily flush people out, or do you want cover to be effective? As it currently stands cover is suicide because being stationary is suicide. That has been the same in any FPS for as long as I can remember. In other FPS games with a reliable radar it's less of an issue because you can see people trying to flank you. This game deliberately engineers an ineffective radar. Cover movement is still useful, breaking line of sight as you approach a target is still powerful, but there is so much AOE in the game and with hit detection as it is, AOE is more powerful than it should be. I agree with you that the ability to break hit detection is game breaking, but I propose to fix the underlying problem, which is the broken hit detection. If you fix that, then the problem you are experiencing with strafing goes away as damage is dealt reliably when you hit them. I don't agree that strafing is a problem.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.05.19 12:05:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You cannot physically track a target unconstraines by inertia. It is medical impossibility. And movement and cover must be combined, not one chosen over the other. AoE weapons and your problems with them have NOTHING to do with the topic. If you have nothing relevant or useful to add move along. AOE Weapons are part of the topic as they are alternatives to a poor hit detection. You physically can track a target that is unconstrained by inertia because you are also unconstrained by inertia and there is no inertia to turning. Like I said, your problem is with hit detection. Fix that and the thing you are seeing as a problem will go away. As I already explained, I haven't seen the movement inertia you are claiming exists in any game I've seen in the past 10 years or ever. People get round it now in Dust and in other games because the problem is not a physical impossibility. Your statement is demonstrably false as people DO deal with it. If it were physically impossible then noone could deal with it, let's cut the dramatics eh? The problem you are talking about is the hit detection, the most visible glitch is strafing; to put it another way, strafing is the symptom, not the disease. If you fix the hit detection, people will stop the strafing you so detest because you will be able to kill them while they are doing it. You said it yourself that exploiting the hit detection is why they do it, so why are you proposing a nerf to strafing when it's clear that the problem is the hit detection?
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.19 14:34:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Here's what strafing looked like before wiggle-wiggle was introduced: https://youtu.be/PYXffQMXXxM?t=74 ^ Deliberate evasive maneuvers. Quite effective when done right, and quite different from gyrating in place while spraying aim-assisted hipfire. Looks pretty much like what I see in-game currently to me. What is it you are unhappy with in that case? The video above was recorded in Chromosome, where (iirc) strafe speed was set to 60% of movement speed, HP pools were around half of today's and aim-assist was yet to have been implemented. I have no issue whatsoever with the deliberate evasive maneuvers illustrated above; the ability to place shots on target while executing these maneuvers absolutely and invariably required skill. What we see above is quite different from what we see today. Today, strafe speed is set to 90% of movement speed. Speed is perhaps not a problem on its own, but combined with Dust's lack of inertia/acceleration and today's higher HP levels, players are afforded opportunity to defy physics and (for example) evade a high percentage of point-blank HMG fire by "wiggling" in place. Unlike strafing, there is no thought or deliberate effort put into wiggling; players simply gyrate and spray while aim-assist aims for them. To answer your question directly, I am unhappy with the fact that players (myself included) are being rewarded for maximizing the effects of bad mechanics. I'm of the opinion that player skill, practice, planning and positioning should play a greater part in the outcome of a given fight than my ability to wiggle around while a robot aims my gun. TL;DR: Wiggling =/= Strafing As I said earlier. I don't disagree that the disease is a problem, but the remedy quoted is to fix a symptom that has legitimate use outside of this specific example [strafing]. The problem is hit detection. If you fix hit detection then it cannot be glitched in this manner and the "wiggle" will automatically stop as they cannot glitch the hit-detection by doing so and evade that high percentage of HMG shots at point blank range. Do I agree that there is a problem, yes. Do I agree that nerfing strafing is the solution? No. Nerfing movement only addresses a symptom, not the cause. Fix the cause and fix the hit detection in the game. It's the harder thing to fix, there's no denying that, but it's also the right fix because it fixes far more issues than this in the game.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.19 15:19:00 - [8] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fixing hit detection means jack if you cannot center the reticle on the target long enough to put rounds in him. Because of how the glitch works even if hit detection were perfect, because there is no inertia to allow the shooter to react to the sudden direction change there will continue to be players who dadance between bullets. Either inertia (aacceleration and deceleration when you change direction) needs to be added or strafing speed needs to be dropped. Honestly the current strafing speed means that uncooked grenades will never be a significant threat and that it will always be easy to dance to the edge of splash falloff. Please tell me how this mechanic adds depth to the game other than adding another way for stat padding morons to push their KD rating without having to resort to actual thought or skill? If they fix hit detection then you will just kill them as the waggling is glitching. Part of waggling means they are repeatedly going back and forth across your targeting reticle, but their hits aren't being counted. There will always be players that can dadance between bullets as you describe, but with glitch detection fixed they will be a tiny minority as it would require much much more skill than now. Is it ideal? No, but in a game there has to be some level of abstract and very skillful/dedicated players will always find a way to exploit that. Grenades aren't a threat in the way you're ascribing them, they're a threat because you get distracted chasing or trying to kill an individual and don't notice the grenade. A grenade that is seen to be thrown very rarely kills anyone from what I've seen in any FPS. It's the unseen one while you're too busy weaving or trying to chase someone to notice they dropped one and you ran over it. The waggle dance adds nothing, I can't argue that, but it's not only the waggle dance you harm by nerfing strafe speed in the way you're describing. Inertia is off the table [that you admit in the first post] and despite your statement to the contrary I haven't seen any evidence of its existence in any top-tier FPS games. I posted a video of one of the recent COD games that had a strafe speed that made Dust's look like a geriatric with rickets and no inertia.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.19 15:38:00 - [9] - Quote I can't disagree, but when you nerf strafing universally in the way that has been proposed, you nerf both "legitimate" uses of the mechanic and the ones that are causing so much consternation. It just smacks of throwing the baby out with the bathwater because a more sophisticated way of dealing with the problem hasn't been found. Like I said, I don't disagree for one minute that the behaviour evinced is an issue, but I disagree strongly with throwing a universal nerf at the problem and telling the people who are using the tactic in a "legitimate" fashion to just deal with it as their nerf deals with another problem distinct from their specific tactic. That's not good game design.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.19 15:51:00 - [10] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Yes, other games have strafing, but strafing doesn't let people dodge bullets. I know most dont like the comparison with Destiny, but they have excellent strafing gameplay: you can move sideways quickly enough to reach cover, but you simply cannot stand in the open and not die. There aren't any videos (that I'm aware of) that show what wiggling in Destiny looks like, but this is a great video that demonstrates what the kind of strafing that you're talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZn9tUc2Y0 In it, they're still moving side to side, and it's still important in throwing off your opponent, but they aren't tap dancing and avoiding shots - it's far closer to the video Adipem linked where the strafing is about timing it to make your opponent shoot the wrong way rather than just moving side to side ridiculously quickly and avoiding 50% of their shots. I actually play Destiny a lot now and I tried to wiggle strafe to see what it was like - it doesn't work, I barely moved at all. But wiggle strafe where you are literally tap-dancing in that manner doesn't really get you out of your opponents targeting reticle, he's not all that far out of it in the video (out of incident, props to that player, he is really good). The waggle-dancing in this [Dust] barely, if at all, gets outside of the reticle and so the problem must be hit detection. Whenever I come up against this the majority of my shots appear to hit, but no damage is registered, which to me indicates that the majority of the issue is hit detection. Number of shots hitting also seems to depend on the weapon, which would further point towards hit detection. To be honest, I don't come across it all that often, maybe once or twice a day will I die to it across 10 - 20 games played, but it's irritating enough to be a problem and I would imagine it's a much bigger problem at the higher tiers of competitive play. I'll freely admit I'm a little more casual, but my previous posts on the matter still stand for me.

Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.19 16:56:00 - [11] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible. Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill.